“But The Client Wants IE 6 Support!”
Frequently, when I discuss CSS3 with other developers, the issue of stubborn clients comes up. They tell me that even though they personally don’t think a website should look the same in all browsers and they’re eager to try all of these new techniques, their clients insist that their website should look the same, so the developers are stuck with the same Web development techniques that we used five to ten years ago. Their clients just don’t “get” graceful degradation.
Is this really the issue? Are our clients incapable of understanding these things? Is the problem that our clients don’t “get” the Web and need to be educated? I don’t think so. We got ourselves into this. We are the ones who caused this problem for our industry. We are the ones giving ourselves this trouble and making our profession less creative and enjoyable than it could be. It’s entirely our fault and no one else’s.
Wait, What?
If we choose to make a website pixel-perfect in Internet Explorer 6 to 8, then we are doing up to 100% more work. No matter how many frameworks, polyfills and other scripts we use to ease our pain, we will always be doing at least 30% more work for those browsers. How many of us actually charge 30-100% extra for this work? I haven’t heard of many who do. Clients get this kind of extra work for free, so of course they will say that they want IE 6 support. If I was a client, maybe I’d say so, too, especially if I didn’t know how these technologies work. They won’t care about our extra time if we don’t care enough ourselves to charge for it accordingly.
Of course, faster download times and better SEO are compelling arguments, but let’s face it: one of the biggest advantages of the new CSS features and new JavaScript APIs is the huge chunk of development time they save us, including making maintenance easier and quicker. As long as that doesn’t translate to reduced costs, clients will not care. And that’s perfectly understandable and natural.

Money always wins the argument. (Image: HikingArtist)
I don’t do much client work these days, but every time I’ve taken on a client project in my career, I’ve always presented options for browser support to my client. They want pixel perfection in IE 7? It will cost them more. They want IE 6 support? It will cost double. I explain to them that this is because I will have to do double as much work for this browser. I’ve never had a single client opt to pay more to fully support older browsers. If it doesn’t come free, you’d be surprised at how many don’t care about it as much as you think. But even if they do, at least I will have enough motivation to do it without hating them, my job, browser makers and the universe. It’s fairer for everyone, including me.
“They’ll Just Go To Another Professional Who Doesn’t Charge Extra”
Whatever you do, don’t let the client think that you are charging extra for doing the same work as another professional. Not only will that look bad, but it’s also inaccurate. Explain to them that you just want to give them options and not decide on your own which browsers to support and charge for accordingly, without ever involving them in the process and letting them have a say about it.
How Much More?
You might have noticed that I implied above that supporting old Internet Explorers requires 30 to 100% more time. That’s a huge range, isn’t it? Actually, it should be even wider. I remember a case of a client coming to me with a CSS challenge that his developers weren’t able to solve. Making something that worked in modern browsers took me half an hour, then an hour to make it work in IE 8, and then three(!) more hours to get it to work in IE 7. Who knows how much longer it would’ve taken if I had to support IE 6, too! And that wasn’t the only occasion when it took me very little time to build a prototype that works in modern browsers and then a grossly disproportionate amount of extra time to make it work the same way in old Internet Explorers. If you’ve been in the field for more than a year, I’m sure this has happened to you, too.
On the other hand, if you don’t use any modern technology and you stick to CSS 2.1, then I guess you would only have to face the old IE bugs, which would take some extra time but not double. Or, if you used a ton of frameworks and polyfills, you would still have to spend some time making them work together and debugging potential conflicts, but still not double the time. 30% was an estimate for cases like those.
As you can see, the range is huge and depends on a number of different factors, including but not limited to the following:
- You
How modern are your development techniques? The more cutting-edge they are, then the more effort you will need to put into making good fallbacks or coming up with alternative techniques for old Internet Explorers (but less effort to make the original prototype) - The project
If it’s a brochure website, the main thing that will need extra effort in order to work in old IEs is the styling. If it’s a Web application, it gets way trickier (and more time-consuming). - Level of support
Supporting a browser is not black and white, either no support or full support. How good your fallbacks need to be will greatly determine how much extra time you have to spend on them.
So, I’m sorry but I can’t tell you how much extra you will need to charge to support old Internet Explorers. You’ll have to decide yourself, case by case, taking all relevant factors into consideration.
“But What If They Just Want To Pay For Firefox?”
Of course, there is a baseline of browser support that I won’t go below, even if the client doesn’t want to pay for it. We have a responsibility to ourselves and to the Web to follow the principle of universality. Even if a client wants to pay only for Firefox support, for example, my responsibility is to ensure that the website is still functional in the other browsers. Even if they are not willing to pay for mobile support, my responsibility as a Web developer is to at least add some media queries and make it decent there. Even if they don’t care about accessibility, my responsibility is to make the website somewhat accessible. These things don’t take up much time anyway, and they should be factored into even your lowest price.
So, What To Do With Old IEs?
So, what do I do for those wise clients who don’t want to pay for support of old Internet Explorers? Usually, I try to keep graceful degradation in mind and provide decent fallbacks for old browsers, so that at least the content is accessible in them. But in cases of really naughty browsers, like IE 6 and 7, sometimes even graceful degradation doesn’t work very well. Then, what I usually do is split my CSS into three files:
- base.css
Fonts, basic colors, etc. - screen.css
Everything specific to the screen. Most of the CSS goes here. - print.css
Print-specific styles, such as for hiding contact forms, etc.
Then, I just don’t serve screen.css to IE 7 and below. They get something like a print style sheet, without the hidden elements. It’s not very pretty, and it’s not modern, but at least they get the content. The same could be done with JavaScript. Check whether an API is present before using it, or simply don’t serve those script files to old Internet Explorers. If you’ve coded your JavaScript properly and it’s unobtrusive and all, then old browsers won’t get that extra functionality, but they won’t get JavaScript errors and broken functionality either. All of those require minimal effort on your part.
“Does That Mean I Always Have To Charge Less For Using Modern Stuff?”
While discussing my point of view with another developer, he asked me, “So, you’re saying that I shouldn’t charge more if I use responsive design and add a bunch of media queries?” Absolutely not! I’m not saying we should feel sorry for being cutting-edge or punish ourselves for that with less income! What I’m barely advocating is the common-sense idea of charging more for more hours of work. If you code some JavaScript that does the same thing that media queries do, then of course you should charge more for the JavaScript, because it will take you more time. But if you weren’t going to do anything like that, and the media queries were icing on the cake, then of course you should charge them more than you would for a non-responsive version of the website.
Conclusion
We may love what we do, but we certainly don’t love catering to the whims of old browsers. We do a lot of extra work to hide their incompetence, and that work needs to be compensated for properly. You don’t have to work for free, especially on something you don’t like doing. Explain the situation to your clients and they’ll understand how it goes, I promise. After all, “extra work = higher costs” is an established rule in every industry. The concept is not hard to grasp, and it makes the benefit of modern Web technologies much more tangible for technologically unsavvy clients.
What do you think?
How do you account for browser support in the pricing of your work? Do you charge extra for legacy browsers or do you provide a basic version of the design to legacy browsers? Let us know and leave a comment!
(al)





MStichel
November 3rd, 2011 5:47 amTotally agreed!
Dennis Jenders (@djenders)
November 7th, 2011 11:17 amThe problem here is not that we should be charging extra, but that as professionals we should know the requirements going in. If you know that 20-30% of visits are coming from IE6 or IE7 then you will be able to properly quote the project from the beginning.
The real problem is that many designers are only concerned with design masturbation and that many front-end professionals only want to do cutting edge work with CSS3.
The reality is that if the site is primarily about consuming content it doesn’t need to be over designed or over worked in HTML5 and CSS3. I’m all about pushing standards forward. As professionals we should be mad at W3C and the lack of getting new standards out quickly. That combined with the decline of IE that we are seeing could help jump start innovation again in the browser world.
When I started back in 1994 we had new HTML rules and markup happening every six months. Nowadays it’s about plugin architecture, socializing the browser and other non-critical improvements.
Adam D
November 3rd, 2011 5:48 amIt seems like a fairly common sense approach to, what is becoming, the most annoying part of webdesign: supporting a browser which should have died many years ago!
Edgar Leijs
November 3rd, 2011 5:50 amYou couldn’t say that much clearer! I agree.
Doug Cuffman
November 3rd, 2011 5:51 amlol I haven’t read the article yet but just had to comment… I arrived on the page, saw the title and couldn’t help but LOL.
(Beavis voice) “DIE IE! DIE!!”…
Doug Cuffman
November 3rd, 2011 5:58 amAnd now that I’ve read it, I completely agree… charging them more is completely appropriate. We should have been doing this from the beginning!
Gaurav M
November 3rd, 2011 5:52 amho! ho!
Yeah… it is happening. Client don’t want to lose the share of the less tech savy customers.. who still prefer to stick to IE6. In asian countries.. IE6 still has the share!
So, more or less.. run or hide..! Some client deliberately want the support for IE6!
dawgbone
November 4th, 2011 6:13 amThe question is then do those viewers contribute any revenue to your company.
If they don’t, who cares?
Mike V
November 7th, 2011 6:38 amTech savy is not really relevant, if your customer’s primary customer is mostly corporate users, it can come down to an upgrade cost. I have one customer that 38% of page hits still come from IE6 and their business is primarily US based. Corporate structure is such a burden at times.
Tiago
November 8th, 2011 3:48 amI work on a huge webapp in a company that sells only to corporate users. We currently only support IE9, not even IE8 because the cost of including new machines with an OS that supports IE9 is much lower for my company than to pay developers to support older versions as well.
bikeman
November 11th, 2011 5:35 amLets face it in Asian countries IE6 only has majority share because of the prevalence of cracked windows os in use. If they can’t upgrade because they are using illegal software who cares?
John McClumpha
November 3rd, 2011 5:53 amAlways an interesting, and often challenging position to be in with clients. The approach we take is to support current major, and previous major release of chrome/firefox/ie/safari by default with others (charged for) upon request, with the proviso that support is via graceful degradation, rather than 100% consistency. Of course the issue of how to best handle different resolutions, particularly with the rise in mobile device use, comes into play on top of all this.
Johan van Tongeren
November 3rd, 2011 5:57 amGood article and I do agree on charging more for the extra work involved in supporting older browsers. They difficulty is in selling this the client. You’ll have explain them why IE6 is more expensive. Why they didn’t pay extra when they had theire old website built and now they do have to.
Mustafa
November 3rd, 2011 5:58 amSo long as you make it a business case then generally the client will agree, if your reason for not supporting IE6 is that you don’t like it then you will have a lot of pain in this industry :)
Cool article Lea
Amanda Soehnlen
November 3rd, 2011 5:59 amOne of the things that I’ve found the most helpful is that if you can get some analytics, don’t say ’327 out of 16,384 visitors use Internet Explorer 6′ because 327 people is still a large amount when you think about it -AS PEOPLE-. If you asked someone what % 327 is of 16384, they’re going to inflate the %, because 327 is a relatable number of people – you can invision it – and 16 thousand is not.
If you say ’2%’, that helps keep it in perspective. It’s even better if it’s like my situation, where IE6 users are only 0.5% of our total visitors.
Lea Verou
November 3rd, 2011 6:04 amExcellent, excellent point!! I love such small but very real insights in human psychology.
Sam Parmenter
November 8th, 2011 8:29 amI agree to an extent but you are trying to mislead the customer into agreeing with you. Its not quite so cut and dry in most cases when it comes to IE.
What if you have a large client whose workforce is limited to IE6 but their business makes up 30% of your revenue. Purely statistically they may represent 0.5% of users but if you ignore them you won’t be losing 0.5% of revenue.
I know that showing them numeric figures that represent that same user base won’t be strictly any different but as you say, 350 sounds like a large number of people even if it is a very small percentage of the user base.
We need to understand the clients needs and also the context in which they sit to be able to honestly and accurately provide them with the best site for their business.
Yusuf Akyol
November 3rd, 2011 6:01 amUnfortunately, that’s true…
Technokrat
November 3rd, 2011 6:05 amAgreed… Thanks for conclusion :D
Ash Robbins
November 3rd, 2011 6:08 amI’m not 100% sure that supporting IE7 and * is actually “extra work”. A lot of our clients won’t have a very good grip on the web – some don’t even know that there are other browsers exist apart from Internet Explorer. I agree with you that it does take a LOT longer to support older browsers and doing it is a pain in the a**, just not sure whether it consitutes extra work or work to be included in a project anyway?
I like the comment above about using analytics to support your case on browser usage.
Shauna
November 5th, 2011 4:07 amThe overarching problem, I think, is that it’s a vicious cycle – we support the older browsers, making them continue to “work,” even when they shouldn’t, because that’s what the customer wants; the customer wants that support, because the older browsers “still work,” even when they actually don’t (thanks to us making it that way).
Even in the case of the large enterprises (which make up the lion’s share of at least the US IE6 following), they fight to keep IE6 because it’s what “works” with their software and upgrading even to IE7 will break another mult-million-dollar title (regardless of the fact that the software arguably never really “worked” to begin with, because it was so utterly dependent on a very specific version of another software title, making it defective by design).
Sam Parmenter
November 8th, 2011 8:40 amThat is an interesting topic of discussion I think. I have seen a number of very expensive systems that keep a company on IE6 or 7 for fear of breaking everything if they upgrade. The system itself is not not very complex or well built but regardless of its true value, if you have paid £2 million for a system, that it how much you believe it to be worth.
We worked with a bowling company who’s software cost a small fortune and we were quoting £20,000 to replace it with a better system. They didn’t want to believe that they had paid crazy money for the old system that was only worth a fraction of what they paid.
Large companies with deep pockets are usually the culprit in these matters.
Alex Key
November 3rd, 2011 6:14 amHi Lea,
Very interesting write-up, nice job!
I like the approach of putting a quantative cost on supporting old browsers to help explain to clients, the varying degrees of support of cross browser support.
Though one important thing to remember, is that in theory the client shouldn’t even need to make descisions of cross-browser compatibility. It is the responsibility of the developer to do appropriate research (in collaboration with the client) into the website’s target audience to help determine an appropriate plan for levels of support.
For example:
Perhaps a client has a really great idea for a council tax management application for local authorities to use. But they do not want to support IE6, as they are on a budget. However research would find that UK government is using IE6, so IE6 support would then be crucial for rollout.
Whereas on the other extreme a client wants a “tech blog” created for them. Then the sites audiance is likely to be tech savy and running the latest browsers.
So the client shouldn’t really be given the choice for what browsers are supported per-say, instead the web developer in their proposal should contruct a “support table” appropriate to the clients needs and provide a balanced quote reflecting support. A nice example is a support table that the BBC have contructed http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/technical/browser_support.shtml#support_table
However of course clients have budgets that they need to adhere to, so I love the idea of giving them quantitative costs to browser support. But this should be backed up with what the web developer’s research uncovers. So then the client can make informed descisions on where they wish to spend there money e.g. if pixel perfect support IE6 will only help 1% of their audience and it’s going to cost them 10% more, then they probably won’t go for it.
Great write up, it got me thinking, keep up the good work.
-thanks
Alex.
Colin Wren
November 4th, 2011 2:14 amGreat point Alex,
I’m an in-house web developer for the UK’s National Health Service, the hospital where I’m based only uses IE6. This means that although I’m responsible for developing our external website (more people use IE9 than IE6 to view it) I find myself ensuring IE6 compatibility because my manager and others in the hospital use IE6.
The NHS (and I imagine the rest of the public sector) are starting to go to IE7 (not much of an improvement) as the companies that provide the web apps that we use have updated these apps to be compatible.
Excellent story and a great way to start the work day!
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 6:56 amI totally agree. You have to take traffic into account, not just gripe about having to do something the “old way”. This article is merely about increasing charges for work you don’t want to do as a way to buy yourself out of coding something correctly for today’s traffic patterns where there are easier methods (for half the traffic) that cause you less headache.
Will you risk your client’s visitors perceiving a lack of quality in her company 40% of the time because you want to take the easy way out.
Stats for a consumer site may well be in the 40% range for IE 6/7/8 usage. You’re telling me you’re not going to design for them because it’s too difficult? You shouldn’t be putting the client in that situation to listen to you basically tell her that’s she’s not intelligent for wanting to support 40% of traffic with nice design details. Worst case, you don’t realize that IE traffic (being average consumers) accounts for most of her online business, and you may be borderline negligent in leading her to believe you.
If design is in the details, let the traffic stats guide your decisions. While you can attempt to “educate” a client, you cannot “educate” her site visitors. It just needs to work. It just need to reflect her brand the same crossbrowser. You’re just not taking that seriously. I’m starting to sense that this “education” is ingenuine and merely letting the client know what’s easiest for us.
Do you see apple.com or spotify.com NOT concern themselves with IE7. No, you don’t. Why? Because they want their brand to be reflected well crossbrowser. I hope that blows your mind. Crossbrowser branding. It’s all in the details that you don’t want to take the time to work out, the corner pngs, the shadow pngs, the IE filter styles.
If you overuse css3 box-shadows and text-shadows and border-radiuses and rgba, then you really risk your client’s site looking like a dog in 40% of browsers to their potential customers. If those 40% of customers get the feel that this design isn’t as nice as another company’s (a company that put the time in), they may perceive a lack of quality in this site and go to the other company.
Will you risk your client’s visitors perceiving a lack of quality in her company 40% of the time because you want to take the easy way out.
Koos
November 3rd, 2011 6:14 amI totally agree, but what about a project in a big organisation (> 100.000 users) and 2000 web-users a day, where the default browser (and almost the only one) ie7 is….?!
Even upgrading to ie9/10 is a pain in the ass :(
Petar Subotic
November 3rd, 2011 6:46 amKoos touched on a important alternative that the article overlooked, and that is including an option to encourage the visitors upgrade to a new version.
There are some really neat solutions out there, like this one from Microsoft:
http://www.ie6countdown.com/join-us.aspx
Lea Verou
November 3rd, 2011 6:04 pmI didn’t overlook it, I just don’t think it’s relevant.
Also, in my experience most users just ignore these notifications. :(
Shauna
November 5th, 2011 4:21 amThat’s where you let the stats for your particular site and circumstances guide you, particularly if you’re stuck with that situation (ie – you’re an employee vs a potential contractor; or it’s an otherwise very lucrative gig).
The problem with articles such as Lea’s is that there are always fringe cases. When speaking generally, such as in this article, the assumption is that the sum usage of the modern browsers are the majority (and for Chrome and Firefox, in particular, this is a pretty safe assumption, thanks to quiet updating), because this article isn’t just written for here and now, but will remain visible and will be referenced for years to come. If you have the stats for your particular site, though, it then comes down to what your needs are. If the vast majority of your users never see something more modern than IE7, then you’re probably better off baselining for IE7 and maybe “rewarding” users of newer browsers with touches of progressive enhancement.
Even then, though, you actually *are* setting your baseline for IE7, instead of the modern browsers. And doing so is akin to setting your baseline support for any other application to 32-bit Windows XP or Windows 2000, because that’s what your client has, versus setting your baseline support to 64-bit Windows 7 and backporting to 32-bit and Windows XP.
Dan
November 3rd, 2011 6:19 amI think the higher cost will depend on what you are building. I work with a team that recently made the decision that ie 6 was not supported. The result, even horizontal floating lists are broken. If you’ve coded through ie 6 life span, most things will just work. Jquery will work. Most layout issues will be fixed with position relative and display inline. So higher cost, I say only if there’s cutting edge stuff that will require you to do extra work. Otherwise, the client wants it, the client gets it.
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 7:02 amExactly. Totally agree. Most truly experienced developers already have worked these techniques out including filters to make pngs and png bg’s work in IE6, etc, like we do. It’s basic stuff from site to site for someone with true experience.
Pete Trickey
November 3rd, 2011 6:26 amTotally agree with this. We’ve recently started not supporting IE6 as standard, with us instead adding additional charges if the client wants it supported.
Some clients, such as the public sector have to have IE6 support because many of them are still running Windows XP with IE6, and will need it to both view and manage a CMS, but generally we are finding our clients are happy with graceful degredation.
It does help that Microsoft themselves are keen for the browser to go as well (http://www.ie6countdown.com/), and that along with stating the market share that IE6 has, as Amanda pointed out, means that clients will generally agree.
Simon Day
November 3rd, 2011 6:34 amAn interesting post.
I approach it from a different angle because saying you’ll charge double to support multiple browsers never goes down to well.
I say something like this:
“To get this site to work across a lot of old browsers will probably mean you will need to scale back on the fancy things you wanted on the site. We may have to use decade old scripts and techniques to make sure it will work in decade old browsers. We need to make this site as no-thrills as possible to get the site built in the time-scale / budget available.”
Usually that’s enough to make them REALLY think about it. More importantly it triggers the RIGHT questions like “Why?” or “What’s the alternatives?”. You get to the same point as this post but you do it in a way that doesn’t make the client run straight for the door :)
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 7:03 amIf you’re only making it really fancy for 50-60% of visitors who may not even be the target average consumer, what is the point?
Kow
November 3rd, 2011 6:38 amJust an idea to show how obsolete IE6 is. That year – in 2001 – NOKIA released 3320, 6310, 5510 and 7650 ( 4mb memory, 176x208px display ). Try to use facebook or youtube on those phones, this is how old IE6 is.
Adam Coulombe
November 3rd, 2011 4:21 pmcompletely irrelevant?!
Shauna
November 5th, 2011 4:26 amI’d say completely relevant. Most people don’t realize that computer technology has a significantly smaller lifespan than most other things. Therefore, they need an analogy they can relate to, one where they understand that a given time frame may not seem like much, but is a lot for a given item.
Senff
November 3rd, 2011 6:41 amIt’s an interesting approach. You’d almost want to give clients a list of browsers and have them check which browsers they want support for. In essence; checking more boxes equals charging more. I’d support that!
However, to single out IE6 is understandable, but only covers the surface. In my experience, making a site work in IE6 is not that painful. Maybe the sites I make are not that advanced, maybe the way I code is smart enough for IE6 to (mostly) understand it, I don’t know…but I never have to spend all THAT much time to fix IE6 issues. Definitely not 30-100% (more like 10% perhaps?).
I personally get more headaches from making things work in Safari iOS, but in fairness, those are not really CSS3/modern issues. I fully agree that it will take craploads of work to make CSS3 effects work in IE6 of course, that DOES take 30-100% extra.
But I’m sure that was the point of this article anyways. I just got carried away a bit, cause one of my pet peeves is that people blame IE6 too easily too often. ;)
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 7:18 amAgreed. It’s a small amount of time for an experienced designer/developer. Browsers are what they are. Traffic patterns are what they are. IE is 50%+ total on consumer sites. Is it the client or the designer trying to shrug that responsibility off?
Mike Lesher
November 3rd, 2011 6:44 amThis is an approach we have been using for a while and have now adopted the same technique for BB support also. Anything less than BB6, if you want total ubiquity, it is going to be additional and typically @ T&M. This allows us to estimate for the client, but not necessarily charge double by default, while creating less risk on our part. Generally we support this approach with stats to back up what they are paying for. For example, if you would like to reach that X% of your target audience that are still using XXX, that will be an extra $XX,000. This way they can decide if the juice is worth the squeeze.
Frank
November 3rd, 2011 6:45 amIE 6 is an old browser…we definately don´t support it anymore. Bad luck for the client…BUT….we try to provide at least no broken layout with IE 6. AND you have to tell the client about that before doing any work :)
Tony Austin
November 3rd, 2011 6:52 am90% of the Sprint stores use IE 6 – WHY? – Guess how I found out and guess where we were in the project when I found out?
It had a happy ending but it took many, many hours, and don’t forget it took many hours and that’s because it took many hours to get the CSS working with it.
Storm
November 3rd, 2011 6:55 amMe: Hi! I just sent the project of the new website to you. Have a look and tell me what you think.
Client: WHAT? It’s broken, I don’t like it. It’s crap.
I go to visit them and they have 20 computers there. All running IE6.
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 7:26 amWelcome to the real world. Traffic patterns show 50%+ of front-end users on consumer sites will have IE 6/7/8/9. How many of those support the CSS3 style you used?
If the site in those browsers reflects poor quality, think about what you’ve done to that client’s business as perceived by 50% of its site visitors.
Shauna
November 5th, 2011 4:39 amSaying that 50% of website users use IE 6-9 is the same as saying 50% of users use some version of any of the non-IE browsers out there.
What you need to do is determine how much of the market share *one specific version* uses the site (for example, IE 6). When it drops below a certain threshold (or some other trigger, such as Microsoft dropping support, or the technology being a certain number of generations beyond its capabilities), you make support for that opt-in and charge more.
How much you charge depends on how much more work your style requires. If your work is heavy in the CSS3 and/or HTML5, but it’s largely rounded corners and box shadows, or the new basic elements (article, aside, header, footer, etc), then the common shim libraries, such as CSS3PIE and HTML5Shiv, are probably all you need and won’t take much more work to implement, so your cost might only go up 5-10%. On the other hand, if you’re doing a lot with media queries, self-hosted web fonts, storage, canvas, etc., then your time and cost might go up as much as 300%. Again, this is dependent on the site’s actual browser share distribution. If you’re trying to use bleeding-edge, advanced HTML5 on a site that’s used almost entirely by people using IE8 or below, then it’s your own fault for using the wrong technology for the job. However, if the grand total of users to the site with, say, IE6-8 is less than 5%, then you could use those techniques and charge more for the legacy support.
DaveC
November 7th, 2011 6:18 amJust my 2p but I think “we” should use caustion when quoting “5% of this” or “1% of that” – lets not forget that 1% of a big number is still a big number. Percentages are bent and misused in advertising e.g. “90% of women noticed a difference” – Wow! 90%!!… then the small print… “187 women surveyed”…
TFCC
November 10th, 2011 1:12 pmOur 53% number was of 1.7 million page views across 1550 front-end sites over the last 2 months and over 500,000 unique IPs.
Robin Cannon
November 3rd, 2011 7:00 amGood article, but I think it glosses over the importance of trying to educate (in *plain English*) clients as to why there are significant disadvantages to IE6 support and why there are very strong arguments why they don’t need to pursue it.
Otherwise you can arguably have a situation where you’re charging for IE6 support because you need the work, and you’re not making clear enough to clients that they’re doubling their fee in exchange for making their site available to an addition 2-3% of people (yes, it’s more work, but many freelancers just need *any* work).
Laurie Onorio
November 3rd, 2011 7:07 amThis is such an obvious answer to this tiring argument and I’m embarrassed we didn’t think of it sooner. I have a feeling this will make future projects much more enjoyable and/or profitable. Please keep dropping these knowledge bombs-they’re awesome.
Mez
November 3rd, 2011 7:14 amThe best comment I get…
“But the NHS still use IE6 and can’t upgrade, so why not have the all singing all dancing web app support it out of the box”…
Ugh!
Alexander Trefz
November 3rd, 2011 7:14 am“Even if they are not willing to pay for mobile support, my responsibility as a Web developer is to at least add some media queries and make it decent there.”
This is sweet. And completely impossible. My boss will fire me instantly if i would repeatedly do more work then we get payed for(which would be 9/10 projects at least), no matter how right the cause is. We do not get payed, we do not work. That is how it is and i am pretty sure it is this way at many places.
Vlad
November 3rd, 2011 7:16 amTotally agree.
Extra work (with IEs) should really mean extra money (or some other compensation). It works that way with (almost) everything.
Nice side effect could be IE market share drop :P
Lee
November 3rd, 2011 7:16 amYou don’t need the website to be 100% identical to other browsers in IE6 but it MUST be functional in IE6. By now people should be familiar with how to make a website that isn’t completely unusable in IE6 without having to go out of their way, if you can’t do that then you’re pretty bad at your job.
So what if IE6 only accounts 1-2% of a sites users, if a site is getting 100,000 visitors a day and for 2,000 of them the site isn’t working you could quite seriously be missing out on thousands in lost revenue.
Perhaps as a designer/developer it’s difficult to see how important is it to make your site available to every possible customer even if they insist on using an outdated piece of software, but as a business every lost visitor is money down the train.
Shauna
November 5th, 2011 4:55 amThe same could be said for any software, though.
Adobe, for example, chooses not to support Linux, or old versions of Windows or Mac. But what about all those people still running XP without service pack 3, or Mac OS prior to 10.5.8? Why don’t they support back to Windows 2000 (since XP came out in 2003), or OS X 10.0 (which came out in 2001)? The Adobe products range from about $500 to $2000 (not including discounted student editions), which means that even if, say 10,000 people are running one of those systems, Adobe is losing out on up to $20,000,000. That’s $20million down the drain for Adobe.
However, even though that could be seen as money down the drain, Adobe has determined that that lost revenue (known in the business world as “opportunity cost”) is not as much lost as if they were to spend the resources to try to support it. In other words, it would cost them more than that $20million to try to support those other systems.
DaveC
November 7th, 2011 6:33 amBut we’re not talking about millions of dollars or developing software for the many/diverse operating systems/device drivers that exists are we? We’re talking about supporting a handful of browsers most of which comply to most common standards both defacto and published. It’s only when you push the platform do you begin to encounter differences/bugs e.g. supporting canvas, webGL, Storage, etc, etc.
The majority of my work it is small to medium business and like lee said “You don’t need the website to be 100% identical to other browsers in IE6, but it MUST be functional in IE6.”.
IE6/7 short comings are well documented – designing a site that doesn’t “break” (look significantly different or fall over) I believe, is *our* job, if we’re not capable of doing that (in a timely manner) then should we be doing this job?
Kate
November 3rd, 2011 7:23 amYes, a valid point, but there are other things you can do to ease your IE6 woes.
Firstly, state it clearly in your contracts that you do not develop for particular old browsers if you do not want to undertake that work. You might want to add a clause that support for these browsers is available only on explicit request at the start of the project.
However – snoop a bit – if you visit the client in situ, check out the browser they’re using. Past experience, someone else did the client visit and another the site build but only tested in Firefox and IE7 (this was a while ago – Chrome hadn’t taken strong hold) where the site looked fine. Launched site, and client rang up saying nobody on the shop floor could see the site properly – turns out the company’s terminals could only use IE6.
Client obviously didn’t have a clue about the difference between browsers, so didn’t even know to raise it with us. Teams need to have that discussion with the client if its a site that must work inhouse too. Like international audiences, it may be you can’t avoid that work, so you’ll have to quote more, or decline the project altogether.
I find that using a reset stylesheet and logical, carefully structured code saves a lot of time not only in general maintenance but in dealing with IE7 and IE6. Using conditional IE tags and a conditional overriding stylesheet will wipe out most of the issues. Though, the more complicated your design and implementation the more headaches you will get.
Great article to give confidence to designers and teams who are still caught with clients who are still struggling with web basics.
Alex
November 3rd, 2011 7:30 amAlthough i understand not everyone can say that to his or her clients, but when a client comes to us with that kind of requests, we first explain them why IE6 is just too bad and a pain in the ass, and totaly out of date. Then we try to explain him it’s just no use and it WILL cost an extra amound of time as wel as money.
If the client doesn’t understand those things, we gently explain them that we’re a modern innovating company that doesn’t go TOO far back in time. And that they could better look for another company. BUT while doing so, you must give them the feeling it’s absolutely THEIR loss, not yours. And sometimes they’ll come back.
If they don’t: probably the best.
Tom Hermans
November 3rd, 2011 7:37 amoh man.. Amen to that!
Tom Hermans
November 3rd, 2011 7:39 amand I’m also pro “bring back the notification bar on top of websites when users are visiting with an old, misbehaving browser”. Maybe that’s annoying, I call it education..
All of the people who I advised to use Firefox or Chrome nowadays are glad I’m told ‘em to .. not at first, cause they have to get used to it, but after 1 day they’re already loving the speed etc..
Hassan
November 3rd, 2011 7:53 amRecently, my work place and I stopped supporting IE6. All of our clients request browser support to IE7+. Also, I figured that the only way to make people stop using IE6 is by forcing them to upgrade. So, the websites that I build usually have a redirect custom page error that tells the user that their browser is out of date, and provides them with links to the latest browsers to upgrade.
I think if we all start forcing users to upgrade, we can eventually kill IE6!!!! If people can protest in millions to take down their leaders and governments, we sure can start blocking IE6 users to make them upgrade…
David
November 3rd, 2011 8:04 amIt is not only about money and time, which is of course important. Clients need to understand (at their level) that when it comes to technology, if they want the same UX in all browsers the most restrictive browser (IE6.0) will be the baseline for the final UX. Show a great design in Firefox with all the lightboxes, jquery fancy things and latest design components (not even talking about transparencies) and then show the same website in IE6.0 and they will quickly realise how this decision can affect their business.
A 5yo website (therefore a business) technologically speaking, cannot compete with new websites.
My approach now with clients is that we make a “working” website in IE6.0 but our complete UX experience in Chrome, IE7.0+ and Firefox.
And finally, I have checked recently most of my websites and the IE6.0 is only about 3% of the total visits. Add UX experience, time and money and your client will be more than convinced.
Mike Barnlund
November 3rd, 2011 8:11 amGood article. I think the additional time you’ve suggested one could spend supporting older browsers is greater than it is for a lot of developers though. Some have spent hundreds of hours working around IE’s various rendering bugs. When you’re that well acquainted, your sites start working in older IEs from the get-go since you start coding around the problems without really thinking about it.
I charge an exorbitant amount of money for IE6 support but it’s mostly an emotional decision and not a financial one. I just hate IE6.
Adam
November 5th, 2011 7:38 pmI agree! Though one might say that if you design with IE compatibility in mind, you should probably use IE as your dev browser.
I have hatred (like, burning, physical hatred) for IE6 too–but I actually throw all the IE versions in that category. Not only do IEs 6, 7, and 8 behave differently from each other, but more often than not I’m seeing that IE9 has additional rendering artifacts that aren’t present in either it’s siblings or rival, standards-compliant browsers.
So now we have to develop for 5 browsers. Yay.
cancel bubble
November 3rd, 2011 8:23 amAn alternative approach is to simplify the design so that it can easily be built back to IE6. I’m speaking more of CSS than JavaScript, though using any decent JS library might be all you need in regards to JS. You also mentioned polyfills which can be used, if needed.
Providing IE6 support is still a valid business case in this day and age – especially in Enterprise-land (more so than providing any mobile or responsive design). How do CSS gradations and shadows help the business? They don’t. Having a usable site/app in IE6 does.
You need to know what you’re expected to support before you begin the design process (this is why I believe designers should code). This should also obviously drive your development process – everyone needs to be onboard upfront.
This really only works if you’re part of the internal process all along. If you’re just brought in to do a build/assembly job (say a contract position), this doesn’t apply and, well, you end up working with what you have.
dawgbone
November 4th, 2011 6:25 amThere’s a difference between making it usable in ie6 and making it look the same in ie6.
I think the point wasn’t so much that you charge extra to make it work in ie6, but charge more to make it look the same. Rounded corners, gradients, etc… all design aspects that change the look of your site but aren’t a requirement to use it.
Simon Clavey
November 3rd, 2011 8:37 amCould not agree more but the argument I always hear when trying to tell customers that I will not make the website identical in appearance and functionality for IE6 without atleast 15% more monies is the NHS story. Sigh… :(
John Walker
November 3rd, 2011 8:44 amGreat article Lea it’s just common sense if your going to end up spending hours on fixes for legacy browsers then make sure your quoting for that time.
We provide our client a list of browsers that the site will fully support and then a section showing the browser which will functionally work and we have had no client question this approach.
Over the last couple of years personally I feel dealing with these older browsers has become easier by originally using css resets and now modernizr. Once a site is complete in my core development browser I’ll then begin cross browser testing from the bottom up. IE6 >
Erwin Heiser
November 3rd, 2011 9:01 amJust charge extra if they want pixel perfection in IE6-7, you’d be surprised how suddenly unimportant supporting IE6/7 becomes to most clients once they realise they’ll have to pay extra for it. As an extra argument tell them you’d rather spend your time making their site look and work well on tablets and smartphones, works every time.
john surdakowski
November 3rd, 2011 9:04 amgreat article..I totally agree. might not be able to make the client understand..but I agree
Nikki Strømsnes
November 3rd, 2011 9:06 amWe don’t optimize for IE6 at all, and we’ve started making graceful degradation to IE7 and 8 – the sites will be functional, but they may miss out on some eye candy. Our approach is similar to yours, but instead of telling them things will cost extra, we tell them they will SAVE money if we get to do our work with modern browsers in mind. Clients alreply positive to this, because we are helping them by offering a better yet cheaper product.
36creative
November 3rd, 2011 9:12 amOh no! the dreaded IE 6. I have lost some hair over that browser.
John Walker
November 3rd, 2011 9:13 amIf your struggling to explain progressive enhancement to your client take a look at this article and document put together by Paul Boag
http://boagworld.com/design/where-are-my-rounded-corners/
David
November 3rd, 2011 9:23 amA company i managed still generates 20K in bookings a year from ie6… no brainer
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 7:52 amExactly. Don’t ignore the traffic. I really doubt a lot of these designers aren’t paying attention to who they’re designing for. It’s one thing to design for your client and mislead them however you want, but you’re ultimately designing for their visitors.
Adam
November 5th, 2011 7:43 pmIt’s almost a matter of prejudice for me–my unspoken mantra is basically “if you still use IE6, I don’t want to deal with you or any of the probable trouble that you’re going to cause me in the near future.”
Brent Dickens
November 3rd, 2011 9:42 amI work for a large IT company in Wellington, New Zealand. We are very billable hours focused. The good part is support for older browsers is all charged for and explained to the client up front. We also have a good look through their site analytics for the last 6 months. Usually this helps to back us up as they soon see ie 6 & 7 usage is very small. They nearly always understand, they don’t like paying for something that has little tangible benefit.
In saying that we always make sure the site is functional and all information is accessible for older browsers.
Great article and a great way to get clients past this issue.
Mike
November 3rd, 2011 10:21 amGreat article. A practical approach to something, as a freelance designer, I’ve struggled to maintain a consistent opinion on.
Igors Brezinskis
November 3rd, 2011 10:26 amNice post! It’s look like this lady have a good vision. Well done! ;)
Nick Gassmann
November 3rd, 2011 10:28 amSo glad to see that the poll reflects the opposite of what you thought to be true. If you aren’t itemizing what you are selling to a client and explicitly charging for legacy browser support, you need to focus your energy on your business contracts and how you setup your agreements. Clear and precise agreements lead to a much happier designer, developer and most importantly a gracious client.
Les
November 3rd, 2011 10:34 amI disagree. For me, it’s never been an issue where “the client wants ie6 support”, it’s always been about demographics and revenues.
Some websites, believe it or not, have a higher percentage of ie6/7 visitors than others, because the visitors are generally older in age and are late adopters on older machines, and / or a relatively large portion of the visitors are within corporate networks running old browsers.
650,000 visitors x 2% ie6 users = 13,000 potential customers/CPMs you’re turning away. If you’re ok with that math… than by all means, don’t support the browser. Those are typical monthly metrics for one site I work on, on some other sites the ie6 share is significantly lower, the goals are different, and in fact I don’t always support ie6 on those sites.
Another point, if ie6 support is doubling your workload then you’re definitely doing it wrong, sorry. I admire your other work Lea, but a statement like that is pretty extreme.
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 8:52 amIt’s not even totally about IE6, but also about IE 7/8 where CSS3 support is not there.
Tom
November 8th, 2011 12:49 amHave to agree with this, we have clients for which IE6 represent 20% of visits and I can’t see myself telling them to pay more for something that we, as professional web designers, should be taking care of! Our job is not only to produce nice looking sites but to ensure it works in the highest number of browsers as possible.
While modern browsers allow you to use fancy CSS3, they are a lot more forgiving for “errors” in the CSS than IE6 is. I actually find it a very good exercise to look at the site in IE6 to make sure I didn’t make one of those “errors” (like placing a wider div inside its narrower container). After a while you know what can go wrong in IE6 and code your main.css accordingly.
Looking at my past 20 projects, the time to get the sites working in IE6 was probably around 1 hour… in total. As Les said, if it takes you 30% more time as a minimum, maybe you should force yourself to learn about IE6 flaws to produce better legacy browser support.
Finally, I’d like to make a difference between not looking as good in IE6 and being unusable in IE6… the latter is totally unacceptable if you call yourself a “professional”.
Lech Wilczyński
November 3rd, 2011 10:37 amLet’s make an extreme case when client is text only browser like Links on a Linux terminal.
There is no way that all these ajax calls will be rendered in this browser, no modal windows etc. But even in this kind of a browser I should be able to make a conversion. I think no one cares about pixel perfect design unless he’s able to “send the form”.
Jason Vaillancourt
November 3rd, 2011 10:50 amGoogle Chrome Frame may be a solution.
Leanne
November 3rd, 2011 11:11 amI was very happy to read this post today. I agree with most of it, I am no longer fussed about making IE7 match pixel perfect to the modern browser version of my sites. I have decided to make sure at least the navigation and content are accessible for free. However, I have dropped support entirely for IE6. It’s a ten year old browser. If I brought a ten year old cell phone into a carrier and asked if they would support it, I’d be willing to bet money on the answer being no. Just because a customer wants support for a certain technology doesn’t mean vendors have to offer the support. Back in 2005 I had an old laptop still running Windows 98 and couldn’t get on my university residence’s network to get on the internet. For a web development student this was pretty necessary. They told me the operating system was too old, I was SOL. I got a new computer. It was the push that convinced me that I really needed a technology upgrade. By supporting IE6 in any fashion, we as developers are delaying that push away from this outdated technology. My opinion is that coding for IE6 is a waste of time, and there’s no price I can charge that would be worth wasting my time.
Markus
November 3rd, 2011 11:24 amIt´s quite frustrating, but unfortunately it is true :(
anardo
November 3rd, 2011 11:43 amWhen I get a client I flat out tell them that I don’t support IE period. I can care less if it is IE9. I want that F* browser DEAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
mike ilz
November 3rd, 2011 5:10 pmI hate IE more than anyone, but that’s not a realistic approach. You need to support at least IE7+ if you ever want to “get a client” again..
Luke Burford
November 3rd, 2011 12:18 pmI don’t usually find IE7 too much bother, so include it in my prices. But I’ve stated in my contracts for about 18 months that IE6 is not included and will be charged as an extra. Number of people taking the option ? Zero.
There are rare cases (i.e. a site I designed that would be used in schools, which often have ancient equipment and browsers) where I’ll say ‘you should probably support IE6 on this, and it’s a little extra’. Ideally if it’s a rebuild, there’ll be some analytics / browser stats to also help make the decision on what to support.
But for 99% of clients, they’ll prefer to save the cash or spend it on other parts of the build. Like the article says, money always wins.
Michael Luedtke
November 3rd, 2011 1:20 pmWhen do you say enough is enough? Does your user have Netscape 4 or an old computer from 70′s? Really!?!?! When the company who built the browser does not support it, you shouldn’t have to.
Wozzza Rabbit
November 3rd, 2011 1:47 pmWow Leah you have really sparked a debate here, IE6 is a total nightmare from a styling point of view and IE7 isn’t much better, had never thought about giving clients the option before but you have inspired me now so thank you!
As Amanda quite rightly pointed out it’s all about percentages and if less than 5% of your audience use a particular version of IE then I think most clients these days would not be prepared to pay extra to accommodate them !
Cheers
Warren (UK)
Mave
November 3rd, 2011 3:25 pmThis article could have been boiled down to one line: “Charge for all the work you do – all of it.”
I hear a lot of whining about “extra” work from designers/developers, and really – if you are putting in extra work that you’re not getting compensated, you’ve got no one to blame but yourself. A lot of that comes down to experience, and being able to think ahead and anticipate where all your time will be spent, what you’ll need to do, and include that in your quote.
In terms of older browsers, as someone already pointed out, browser support should be driven by the client’s audience, not by our personal whims. And we should plan and design projects with browser support in mind, and make sure we are advising the client on which browsers they need to support based on their users, not leaving it up to them to decide what to do based on extra costs and expenses that they won’t want to pay. Build the requirements into the quote – don’t line-item them as extras and then let the client choose not to buy stuff they genuinely need and don’t have the expertise to know they need. It’s our job to tell them what they need, and how much that will cost.
Aside from that, seriously – I don’t get what the big deal is. I hate IE with the fiery flames of hell, but it’s not THAT hard to create sites that work, even in IE6. It comes down to experience, and knowing what the potential pitfalls are. If it’s taking you hours to get things to work in IE6 or IE7, then there’s something seriously wrong with the foundation you built the site on, and you should maybe re-think your approach and work on your coding skills.
TFCC
November 4th, 2011 9:18 amTotally agree. It really seems like some designers just don’t want the “hassle” of building a site right or don’t know how. Then other designers tell them they don’t need to know how. Just “educate” and “charge for it.”
Maybe someone needs to educate your clients that they could find a quality web designer with some real experience who will design for YOUR audience.
TheAL
November 3rd, 2011 3:36 pmI used to support IE6 if the client asked. I wouldn’t charge extra, per se. The site would usually take a little longer to optimize (resulting in a slightly higher price). However, I’ve since dropped support for IE6. I am now getting close to supporting IE7 only if requested. We’re on the verge of having IE10 to deal with. I think it’s more than sane to only want to deal with three IEs at a time. Supporting so many older browsers goes from being necessary, to extra work, to frustrating, to just unreasonable.
Pedro Heliodoro
November 3rd, 2011 4:00 pmHello Lea
Great article.
Me and my team strive for supporting two old versions of IE agains’t the current one.
If the current stable version is IE9 than our support will go no further than IE7.
Supporting older browsers will be an eternal discussion.
In desktop development, if the software requires Operating System Z, then the user will have no choice but to upgrade their system to meet it’s requirements. The same philosophy should be applied to web development. Developers should be allowed time to experiment and develop cool stuff, while knowing that it will work in every current browser.
So why using the same old technology if that technology is 30 years old? Will we continue to ask ourselves whether we should support old and outdated software? Why not educate our consumers that there are advantages in using the latest browsers? I fully understand companies that have built intranets with IE6, and probably i’m gonna be flamed because of this, but why even bother to build on that platform if they knew there were upcoming browser versions?
To finish my rant, I have this one question for all of you out there:
Why not having a single rendering engine? Why having 5 or 6 different engines?
:D
Adam Coulombe
November 3rd, 2011 4:07 pmThis is the stupidest web dev article I’ve read in ages. I find it hard to even believe that this was written by someone who actually works as a web developer professionally. You whine about having even basic support for older browsers (ahem, serving them a print stylesheet? wtf?!?) And yet no mention of all the ridiculous inconsistencies in CSS3 implementations, like as if that is not time consuming too. I actually believe developing under constraints and striving for wider support is partly what leads us to creative and innovative solutions. Supporting a wide range of browsers isn’t even difficult if you know what you’re doing. It sounds to me like you’re just being lazy.
Adam Coulombe
November 3rd, 2011 4:11 pmRight from the first line I knew this article was going to be stupid. Just because a client wants IE support, that makes them stubborn? Please… You live in your own little world. Do you realize how many companies and organizations still have old versions of IE standard on their computers. Who in their right mind would only pay for Firefox support? That is unheard of and completely unrealistic.
Oleg
November 3rd, 2011 4:20 pmCharge by the hour and not by the project … problem solved! This way, any additional work that you are required to do, you bill them for it :)
Jon
November 3rd, 2011 4:27 pmAgree with you Adam. All our stuff is ie6 compatible- we do a lot of Govt work and if they’ve seen a design sign off and it doesn’t look like that on their network, you have to fix it to keep them happy. Regardless of the browser. It’s a business case and there are rules written into contracts. As for charging extra to support older browsers, this is a huge turn off for any sizeable tender, and likely to result in not getting return business. The best way is to know your browsers, stop hating Microsoft and write compatible code. Any developer worth a wage can deal with browsers, not just the ones they favour. You should cost for this upfront though, and it makes better business sense to offer a discount for not catering for legacy browsers- they feel they’re getting a deal, you keep your hair and they make the decision.
Pedro Heliodoro
November 3rd, 2011 4:45 pmSo let us say that you want to support IE3.02 because your client’s computer is not allowed to upgrade? Or even does not support Flash for using video? Most of our colleges don’t want Flash controls and IE6 doesn’t run video tags?
How do you propose to please those?
:)
Jon
November 11th, 2011 3:44 pmWould you seriously take on a contract like that? If you tell the client it will work in ie6, then you need to deliver- period. We review our work, we cost it accurately, and we flag ie6 issues way before the build. In the situation you describe, we used to have clients who couldn’t upgrade or even use plugins like flash. I think the version they had was 6 at the time, so this was a situation we used to face! It does increase costs, you just need to factor this in, that’s all.
FWIW i’d love not to have to factor this in- but there it is. :)
mike ilz
November 3rd, 2011 5:04 pmGoogle only supports the last 3 versions of IE. Educate the client and move on.. nuff said.
Matt V
November 3rd, 2011 5:35 pmUnfortunately, we’ll still have this problem in the future, and for the same reason: Microsoft still have their heads up their a**es and haven’t learned anything from IE6.
To wit: the problem with IE6 was that IE7 only ran on XP SP2 or higher. (Plus that it didn’t come out for like 6 years, was never bundled even as an option with an XP service pack, didn’t have any kind of prompting to automatically update to, etc.)
The problem with IE7 is that IE8 was never included with a Vista service pack even as an option, and automatic updates doesn’t prompt to update to IE7 to IE8 (as far as I know).
The problem with IE8 is that IE9 only runs on Vista SP2 or higher. (etc.)
The problem with IE9 will be that IE10 will only run on Windows 7 (+service pack?).
In five years we’ll be bemoaning all the people still using IE8, even as MS releases IE11 (and Chrome is at like version 30, Firefox at version 20, etc.)
We all really have to band together to help force abandonment of old versions of IE by never making any site perfect in any version of IE except perhaps the latest (degrading worse the older they get). Microsoft isn’t going to do it for us. (We also need to stop showing clients pretty Photoshop mockups of what a site could look like at its best and instead mock up in the browser; if they only ever see their site in IE, they’ll never know what they’re missing…)
reinier
November 3rd, 2011 7:35 pmHaven’t we got the job to rescue the customers from using that unsecure browser and OS there running? If they will get hacked, or if other weird things happen to there PC’s and they mainly use your website you may probably get the blame. That could damage you image. Also, supporting IE6 on your application is a security risk for the application as well in many ways. I think that not supporting -and even blocking- IE6 users, will cost less in the end. If we don’t force them to upgrade, who will.
Sidd
November 3rd, 2011 8:53 pmThank you very much.
I will from now on add a link to this article in my contract for “enlightenment” of the lost client soul.
And make sure that they read for i will hold a discussion on it afterwards :P
Rajeesh.P.K
November 3rd, 2011 9:21 pmPeople are changing their mobile phones when a newer version or latest feature arrives….
Why not change their old browsers… ?
Ramnath A.S
November 4th, 2011 6:00 amIt’s Microsoft’s mistake. It updates browser thro’ “Windows Update”. Like Firefox & Chrome, IE should be updated separately.
Anna Funk
November 3rd, 2011 10:29 pmI’m finding it more and more difficult to test in IE6, so I don’t offer it unless the client brings it up.
Luke
November 3rd, 2011 10:55 pmOn all my proposals and contracts I state that my websites support modern browsers and their technologies. Secretly though I support back to IE7. I’m yet to have a complaint from a client with an older browser. Of course I don’t go all out with the CSS3 yet, just little bits here and there and I ensure the design still works without it.
My layouts still work in older browsers as I am used to creating layouts for those types of browsers from when I started learning web design/development. I am not too worried about small inconsistencies in older browsers unless they ruin the purpose of the site. I suspect IE6 and IE7 users are used to seeing odd things on the net by now anyway.
Of course if I had a client who’s target audience is those expected to support older browsers I support those first and foremost.
ivan bravo
November 3rd, 2011 11:09 pmExcelent Article
Videlizard
November 4th, 2011 12:07 amThats my mind “extra work = higher costs”.
Nico
November 4th, 2011 12:30 amI do not agree with “Then, I just don’t serve screen.css to IE 7 and below. ”
You should let the website look quite equal in every browser. the nth-child and border-radius wont work okay no big deal but the user can still use the site as we wanted. And if you got some fancy images positionated with css3, just remove them with display none.
Remove everything that doesnt looks like expected of style it to default is the better way to explain a customer why the page looks different at his office pc
Lea Verou
November 4th, 2011 4:44 amI discuss it with the client up front, so there’s no way he’ll ask me something like that. On the other hand, I guess I had more tech-savvy clients than others, that actually know what a browser is and that different versions support different things.
If you use progressive CSS, it’s nowhere as simple as you describe. IE7 has tons of bugs, and most of the times when I first check something there, it’s completely broken. On the other hand, if you develop with the IE7 bugs in mind, I guess that won’t happen. I don’t want to, not by ignorance, by decision.
fwolf
November 4th, 2011 12:44 amWhat this discussion is – again – lacking: Proper framework solutions to this problem. I actually don’t optimize for IE 6 anymore. If the customer insists on that, I do the above explaining and reasoning. And in most cases, the customer lets the issue drop.
That’s also because I’m using modern, up-to-date techniques, combined with a proven framework (BluePrint CSS in 99% of the cases), to reduce the “let’s optimize for IE”-problem down to the usual “detail work”, which you gotta do at the end of the project for regular, w3c-complying browsers anyway. The “overhead” is approx. 5% and less.
Indeed I have had just ONE single case during the course of the last 4 years were I was required to do some actual fiddling around with IE-only bugs and techniques, and that also only occured while trying out a different, mobile/small screen-optimized fluid CSS framework.
The regular working schedule normally consists of the usual “let’s test this in Google Chrome, too” plus maybe a short visit to the VM emporium (“let’s take a look at it in IE 6,7,8″). In the case of IE 6 that VM is probably active already anyway, cause that’s were my old, but reliable-proven Photoshop 7-something version resides (for anything else there is ImageMagick, The Gimp and Inkscape – who needs Freehand anyway?).
About the framework I’m using: In nearly all cases nowadays, it consists of a moderately adapted BluePrint CSS, which got some HTML5- and CSS 3-goodness added, based mostly on the HTML5Boilerplate framework. This includes media queries as well as the Modernizr JS library, plus the alternative conditional comment style, but adapted to Blueprint CSS.
Of corpse, your reasoning is to avoid this matter of multiple browser testing as much as possible, but so do I. And then there is still the fact, that current “modern” browsers got their own bugs as well (eg. the nasty Safari <= 4 bug, when you suddenly get browser defaults for the link color .. #00f ("straight blue") doesnt look too pretty on dark-gray background, or that Firefox 3 – 5 display: block-bug), so you normally can't get around the "multiple browser tests at 95% of project done" action.
Sure, there are clients that don't care if you do or not, or simply lack the technical understanding, thus except you to know your job better then them, including these mere "superificial details". So if you simply leave out the "let's take a short glance at this outside of my regular box" task and get away with it .. well .. perfect for you. But that's not MY philosophy – and I'd rather believe it aint for the overwhelming rest of us developers and designers ;)
cu, w0lf.
Steve Fenton
November 4th, 2011 1:18 amThis is a quality article. It doesn’t assume that client’s don’t know what they are talking about. As a web designer, you may know more about the technology than your client, but they know more about their own business and their own customers than you do.
If they are willing to pay for IE6 support, it is because they know that their customers need it. Anyone who wants to join the crusade of “no legacy browser support” needs to understand that The Web is global – and that includes IE6 as well as some really gnarly old mobile phones, which are getting a second life in developing countries.
Great work Lea.
nd_macias
November 4th, 2011 2:56 amI disagree. The Web is global you say – alright, so maybe we should also support IE5? I bet there are few growlers who still using it. IE6 is an antique and so it should be treaten. Anyone using it is doing it for his/her own responsibility. We can not always look back. I mean, c’mon man – people are buying plasma tvs for big money and they can’t afford to upgrade/change their browser for free?
Darcy Yang
November 4th, 2011 1:21 amI never want double or more if the client wants IE6 or other brower’s support…
..what a pity
ddsign
November 4th, 2011 1:32 amNice post and good explanation. I agree.
nd_macias
November 4th, 2011 2:41 amTotally agreed! Charging extra money for extra work should be the standard, not an exception. On the other hand – extra charge for supporting IE7 is imho too much. Many people are still using it and it’s not the minority I’m talking about. I guess the best solution is to support it partly, so the user gets content without any extra fireworks and we – the developers from all over the world – wouldn;t have to work extrahours just to satisfiy some users who just can;t upgrade their browsers. :)
I’d like to say one more think – I alway leave the pop up message for IE6-users that says “you’re using old, dangerous and shitty browser – upgrade it or change for your own sake or you won’t be able to truly experience the beauty of world wide web”. :)
Lea Verou
November 4th, 2011 4:53 amAccording to the statcounter stats, and any Google Analytics stats I’ve seen on multiple websites, IE7 usage is insignificant. It seems that most people jumped straight from IE6 to IE8. There are way more people using IE6 than IE7 too.
nd_macias
November 4th, 2011 9:51 amWell, I guess it depends on localization. In Poland it is still ca. 7% of users while there is only 1-2% of users using IE6. :)
http://www.ranking.pl/pl/rankings/web-browsers.html
kapil
November 4th, 2011 3:29 amagreed!
Dil
November 4th, 2011 3:41 amI totally agree. Good article.
janis
November 4th, 2011 3:55 ami put this script on every page http://www.ie6nomore.com/
everybody will see it if they use ie6 or ie7
gr.
Alexk
November 4th, 2011 4:07 amPerhaps you should try saying
“It will cost you X but if you do NOT want IE6,7,8 it will cost only Y”
and make Y around half.
Lea Verou
November 4th, 2011 4:55 amIE8 is nowhere even close to the beast that’s IE6 and IE7. IE8 isn’t very buggy, it just doesn’t support many things. I would never put those 3 in the same group.
Jeremy
November 4th, 2011 5:59 amInteresting article. I work in-house for a large ecommerce company, so charging more is not an option. In my situation the best thing I can do is make it clear that being compatible with IE6 will cost the project time, which in a sense is money. Unfortunately when 6% of your users are still on IE6, higher ups feel that investment is necessary.
Still, we’ve been able to make some headway by convincing the people in charge that IE6 does not need to be pixel perfect, just usable. This helps keep the IE6 fixes minimal and allows us to use some CSS3.
Right now I actually don’t see IE6 as the biggest hurdle for the future of CSS though. I think that Windows XP is the problem. From what I can tell the latest IE you can put on XP is IE8. That means all those users who don’t want to buy a new computer for the next couple years (or upgrade their operating system) could very well be using IE browsers that don’t support CSS3. Call me pessimistic, but I get the feeling we’ll be cursing XP for another 5-8 years, long after the death of IE6.
Peter
November 4th, 2011 6:37 amIE6 doesnt support JSON ..
So if you want to do some serious programming start with IE8 or IE9 (better)
Ofcourse Firefox does support it.
What if you client doesnt want to change any current configuration
Popup a note to use firefox portable for your site.
To stay with old software is like inviting hackers to hack you.
Its part of your eduction and expertise to point people to such risks.
There are a lot peole who dont know abut these risk; you should tell them.
Also note by adding some meta tags to the header section starting from IE8 IE can render pages in the old style, its not that hard to do if rendering is the only problem.
But IE9.. really its a lot better / faster / secure..educate your customers.
Heather Burns
November 4th, 2011 6:37 amMy take on the situation is that if the client requires me to code for IE6, I have to wonder if I am going to get paid. Either they are a mom-and-pop (or grandma-and-granddad?) business which is barely getting through each month, or they are a government bureaucracy which, having taken no steps to modernise over the past decade, will be first in line for the next round of budget cuts. So for me, reluctance to work for IE6 users is a reluctance to work for businesses which are barely staying in business.
I would stress, though, that whatever anti-IE6 strategy you take should be grounded in education and consideration, not attitude and one-upmanship, as I’ve written here: http://idea15.wordpress.com/2009/05/07/friendly-anti-ie6-warning-messages/
GreatUncle
November 4th, 2011 11:23 amPlease don’t stereotype the “Grandma and grandpa” group. I’m part of that generation (so was Steve Jobs) and have worked in software development since the eldar days. I still work in the field using a Mac running Lion, my wife uses a PC running Windows 7, IE9 and Chrome.
I do keep a nice old IBM T40 Thinkpad on my museum shelf beside my gramophone, oil lamp, dial telephone, and manual typewriter so I can test websites on IE6. I agree IE6 belongs on that shelf.
This article is spot on, if it takes extra work it should cost the client more or they should be willing to get less functionality. I used to own a 1981 Alfa Romeo Spyder, it was pretty, but very temperamental and difficult to fix. It always cost a lot more than our late model Toyota because it needed to go to a specialty auto shop. Maybe a clever entrepreneur will start a chain of Antique Browser support shops so we can just outsource this headache. There are electricians who specialize in knob and tube work and they do very well, so do the few remaining blacksmiths and stonemasons.
One issue that wasn’t mentioned in the article and comments is the plethora of modes that IE can run in. Even IE9 can appear broken when used in compatibility mode and many IT departments set that as default for intranets causing strange behaviour when demoing from internal servers.
Jason Stone
November 4th, 2011 6:50 amAt work we just support it because we’re nice like that :)
However, on my personal blog (jstone.co.uk) I don’t even let ie users in. Of ANY version. But that’s just me – my blog is not a democracy… :D
fp
November 4th, 2011 9:15 amNope.
I’m never gonna do any support or custom work around IE in general. It’s old and obsolete – people must move on.
Stop supporting this browser. Period.
Alexei Rebrov
November 4th, 2011 10:32 amMost Canadian banks and government closed network clients use IE6. It’s reality. They don’t have and are not allowed to have anything else.
Developers working for these clients (internal or outsourcing) don’t have any choice. And clients pay well :).
My evil prediction is that IE6 never dies :))
David Foy
November 4th, 2011 10:52 amI read through your thoughtful article waiting for some recognition that your clients sometimes have really, really good reasons for their choice, which means they have really, really good reasons to stick with yesterday’s technology.
All I saw was a narrow developer’s point of view, that the whole point of advanced technology is…well, to use advanced technology, whether it suits the client’s real needs or not (as opposed to what you want those needs to be).
None of this looks at the problem through the client’s eyes.
Matt V
November 4th, 2011 6:03 pmSure, they might need to use IE6 for some internal web app, but why do they need to use it for everything else? If I use Excel for spreadsheets, shouldd I have to use it to write memos, too? Right tool for the job… There is no good excuse for not having a modern browser installed, aside from “we don’t want our users surfing the web”.
Lea Verou
November 5th, 2011 5:09 amIt’s not written for clients, it’s written for developers. If you need reasons why advanced technology is better for everyone, you might be in the wrong job.
Adam
November 5th, 2011 11:55 amI really don’t see any reason why there can’t be both (advanced technology with backwards compatibility). In the majority of cases, an experienced designer/developer will really not have any trouble, and spend very little extra time making a website compatible with IE6. Serving IE6 a print stylesheet is actually a pretty funny notion in concept. Go ahead and do that on your blog. But in practice, there’s no way I could ever actually see that being acceptable for client work. I honestly think It would take more time for me to explain to a client the issues with IE6 then it would take for me to just make the site compatible. Theres no sense complaining about age-old issues when you could be making better use of your time honing your skills and abilities.
X-oR
November 4th, 2011 11:14 amI agree but don’t fall into the easy idea that clients want IE6 compatibility just because they’re using it. I’m a client, not a dev, and I totally understand your point of the extra work that IE6 or 7 involve.
The reality is that IE6 is still around 50% of browsers use in China, and 30% in Japan and still 9% in Europe. When working on an international project, you can’t get rid of this information to save money, but you have to include that parameter in your need so that you get the most accurate price, and, more important I think, the most accurate planning (I had to remove IE6 from the scope of a project to be sure that we’ll be on time, which means 9% of the European users that won’t be able to see the site properly…)
To go straight to the point, I agree with this article for several reasons:
1. People need to understand that IE6 is an extra cost 100% of the time (even using it is a pain…)
2. When people will keep hearing that IE6 is “special”, they will understand it and think about their real need.
This article is also good because another important thing is that IE6 is often underestimated by devs. Maybe the first step would be that every devs realize that IE6 understand html yes…but not every part of it (it might sound ridiculous as I say it, sorry for my english).
Steve Nomax
November 4th, 2011 11:25 amWhen even Microsoft (among many others) says “Don’t use it!” due to security issues (http://www.ie6countdown.com/) then we certainly are not the ones who let clients have what they want. As an agency, we have the responsibility to educate them.
Usage is high only in China, so a decision must be based on facts, not wishes. Is the website targeted at chinese users? (or: Canadian bank intranet?) Really? Okay, checkbook please.
Steve
Chris Cardinal
November 4th, 2011 11:36 amWe support down to IE7 usually by default but for 6 (and soon 7), we put up a banner that warns the user of a subpar experience and pushes them to Chrome Frame.
I explain to clients that it’s like being upset that a user can’t access your site from their old rotary phone. The technology isn’t the same.
GreatUncle
November 4th, 2011 11:38 amAs I mentioned above there might be a niche business in this for more experienced developers to provide support for Antique Browsers, MS is providing years of business with their decision to not run IE9 under XP.
Samir
November 4th, 2011 11:51 amWell if you able to manage site to fix in IE6 then u can work on any browser. IE6 uses correct rendering for webs pages :)!!!
But since it is outdated now so it should be charged more for clients who wants IE6 support.
John
November 4th, 2011 1:34 pmIt has been my experience that the clients who want IE6 support in the last few years request it because they either sell very expensive products, or have such a high volume of traffic that it’s worth the initial investment to not make their IE6 using customers feel alienated. Even if it was a small percentage, if the volume is high enough it’s worth supporting so at the end of the day they make more money.
Derek
November 4th, 2011 2:27 pmIn my position I completely disagree.
My clients come to me with complete lack of knowledge for the Internet and websites and expect me as a professional to make the right decisions regarding the web. I don’t think it’s right to lay that burden on the client. When I take my car in to be repaired I don’t expect the mechanic to start educating me on my car and it’s inner workings, I just want him to fix it.
now most of my clients comes from quite outdated sectors, education, engineering and public etc. so yes, I will be coding for legacy browsers because it’s a necessity.
With that in mind I think it should be the other way around, with a project for a more tech savvy sector, I will give them the option of a more ‘forward thinking’ design and charge them extra for graceful degradation, but I definitely do not agree with asking the client how I should do my job.
Adam
November 4th, 2011 8:08 pmI think you hit the nail on the head here Derek. It is really not the clients problem that one browser works a different way than another. They just want it to work. And its your job as a professional to take care of that and deliver a working product.
Lea Verou
November 5th, 2011 5:15 amYou can explain the differences and statistics and let them decide. In some cases old browser support is something that you can’t avoid and has to be factored in the initial quote. For example, when creating websites for a large Asian audience.
But in most cases it’s not as much a straightforward decision with a definite right answer. If you’re expecting 5-10% of old browsers, especially on a small website where that 5% doesn’t account to many people, it’s perfectly reasonable to explain it to your client and give them options.
Aurelien
November 5th, 2011 11:49 amI agree with Derek. Most of my clients just “want a website” to “be on the Internet”. They expect me to make these kind of choices for them.
When I go to a restaurant, I don’t want the Chef to ask me which cooking wine he should use for the sauce of my steak.
Also, you have to take into account how the website will promote your work. I’ve developed a website ONCE with no real support for older browser and got several negative remarks asking why so-and-so wouldn’t see the booking page correctly etc. Whereas I got new clients forwarded to me from clients whose websites I took ages to make perfectly IE6-compatible.
Nowadays, all my clients come from another previous client.
Jiri Brezovsky
November 4th, 2011 2:28 pmThanks a lot for inspiration for my next appointment with my clients. These arguments and way of explaining are so good.
Niels Matthijs
November 4th, 2011 3:18 pmOne of these articles comes along every year or so, a testament to the persistence of IE6 no doubt.
There are two problems with the theory above. The first (and biggest) is that it works quite well for smaller clients, but when you’re working for big companies who are all IE6 in-house, there’s no way you can convince them to skip IE6 support. They wouldn’t even be able to validate your work in-house. You can charge them extra, but if you charge them double, they’ll call you an amateur.
The second problem is that they would probably be quite right in calling you an amateur. It’s fine to drop IE6 support where possible (if the % is low enough and the client accepts it), but there are still plenty of occasions where IE6 support is a must, and people should still be able to make it happen. I know debugging IE6 is a bitch, but rather than make people lazy and uncaring, they should learn to deal with the less pretty part of our job.